Episode 48

Lighting Efficiency & State Changes

Recently, several states around the country have made legislative changes requiring businesses to lower their energy demands by improving the efficiency of their operations – including cannabis cultivations, which require a great deal of energy. Whether you need to meet the latest requirements implemented in California, Illinois, or Massachusetts, or you want to cut back on your energy demands in order to lower your overhead operating costs, it’s absolutely critical that you optimize your lighting efficiency to maximize your yields and your profits.

In this episode, we sit down with Anthony Vilgiate and Ryan Doyle of Agxano, as well as our own Cultivation Expert, Clay Kramm of Higher Yields Consulting to discuss everything you need to know about maximizing your lighting efficiency.

Adam Kulbach 0:13
Hello and welcome to the show. Today’s episode is about lighting efficiency and state changes with our special guests, Anthony Vilgiate, and Ryan Doyle from Agxano. So, let’s start by having you guys introduce yourselves. Let’s start with you, Anthony.

Anthony Vilgiate 0:30
So I’m Anthony Vilgiate, I’m the president of CABA tech, which I’m their consulting firm that does the design of manufacturing for Agxano, and the head scientist as well. We’re located in Spokane, Washington. I’ve been in the legal 420 business since 1998, at California with Compassionate Care Act, and spent most of my time working on the photometrics in the lighting plans, and controlled environment agriculture. Majority of what we do is in the cannabis space, but we still have about 30% of our total businesses in flora culture and stuff like that. So, passionate about it, I love what we do, and I love the direction our industry is heading right now.

Adam Kulbach 1:06
Okay, well, thanks for being here. How about you? Ryan, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Ryan Doyle 1:13
Yeah, absolutely. My name is Ryan Doyle. I’m the Vice President of Product at Agxano. My background has been in technology and startups, building platforms on wireless network. So the previous project before this, we built a project called Pangea, which is a smart city application connecting things like gunshot sensors, air quality sensors, lighting, storm sense and in bringing it all together in like a very digestible what hypercity plan it is, things that they care about, and then stitching together the data set into usable form. And so with Agxano, we’ve leveraged a lot of that same infrastructure in terms of creating a network to identify the things that matter, that-affect plant growth the most. So you have lighting is a critical component of it. And then you have the environmental, so the temperature, the co2, the VPD, soil, moisture, soil EC. And so we deploy wireless sensors to bring all of that real time information back for you to make decisions off of, but then put that into a machine learning algorithm to tease out through the, you know, intentional changes that you made, and the you know, sometimes you make a mistake, things get a little bit away from you. And it turns out that that had a positive effect, to then optimize and, you know, select for things like yield, quality, whatever those parameters that our grower’s looking for.

Adam Kulbach 2:49
Okay, well, thanks for being here. And to start, let’s talk about the recent changes going on around the country that are impacting energy efficiency requirements. The first one I heard about was California implementing title 24. What is title 24? And how does it impact cannabis cultivations?

Anthony Vilgiate 3:10
So title 24 is a broad energy scope code. It’s published out there, it’s actually currently already enforced, it has been since 2023. And they’re actually working on the code revisions right now for the following year through CLT. So Ryan, and I both sit on the stakeholders board of that, and we help guide the CLT and the case studies groups on how to, what impacts it’s going to have because obviously, we’re dedicated to conserving energy. We want to be good stewards of our environment and good stewards for our industry. But we also don’t want to impact a grower’s ability to produce a high quality product. So if somebody arbitrarily walks in as a non-horticulture says, we decided you can only have 20 watts per square foot, well, that’s not a good thing. So they pulled guys like us to say, what are the minimums what’s the best practices we can put together? And California has a one code that for mixed mixed use greenhouse that only allows you to have six watts per square foot. That’s a very small amount of power per canopy square foot, or states like Chicago and Massachusetts have a 36 foot 36 watt per square foot bottom threshold, all the way up to 50. In Massachusetts, if you have a tier one or tier two license, you can negotiate some stuff around that. So we’re trying really hard as a stakeholder in the industry to help guide them and putting together responsible legislation that doesn’t impact the growers to the point where they can’t produce the yields and the quantities they want and the square footage allotted to them. And this is going to roll out sometime in 2024. It’s out for public comment now. We have another round of meetings on the 16th of May, that for public comment that we’re trying to clip cleaning up some language, we’re all talking the same things when someone says light intensity, what would they mean? Do they mean par, they mean foot candles. I mean, we’re really trying to narrow this down so that people are measuring the right stuff and getting the right results as a result of the legislation we’ve put together for him.

Adam Kulbach 5:04
What about Illinois? What changes are-is Illinois looking to roll out?

Anthony Vilgiate 5:09
So are you looking at just Illinois full cannabis legislation or just their energy stuff? Because man, there’s a lot happening and there are just the cannabis legislation there. Some of the decriminalization, social equity programs, a lot of that has moved through the legislature there. But I haven’t seen any dramatic impacts that are gonna affect commercial licensed growers in Illinois and the energy consumption front right now. Their biggest, their biggest thing, and it happened in 2019. I’m trying to remember, I think I took a note on this, I can tell you exactly which Bill it was, I want to say it was 943. In 2019, limited them to only using lighting products that were certified by the design lights consulting the DLC. So they were the first state to my knowledge that actually said, Hey, you can only buy a light off of this list. And I mean, we can talk about the DLC probably for two hours. But they didn’t hire a whole lot of plant scientists to put that spec together, they listened to a lot of marketing gurus, from the big names in the lighting industry. And that unfortunately, tailored people to tailor products that meet specifications, not plant requirements, and it wasn’t a healthy-healthy standard, in my opinion, 3.0 they did a better job, they are expanding the range of par they’re understanding what plant biologically active radiation is not just photosynthetically active and they’re taking more into consideration. But, if you let an energy standards ESCO guide, drive a farm, you’re gonna get a very low consuming energy farm that can’t produce products that are really your brand in my opinion. So what Illinois is doing on the energy front is they’re pretty stabilized, they’re saying, hey, go with DLC, you got 36 watts per square foot. I haven’t seen big, big shifts there. You’re looking at some shifts in Massachusetts, but they’ll pretty much do whatever California passes. So watch for title 24 Revision code 2024. To rollout in a year, it’s already in public comment, you know it’s gonna pass, and then most states will pick it up. Washington State will grab it right away. I think our laws’ already written to say whatever, whatever California does, we’re just gonna follow suit. In Massachusetts, there’s this in codified but they’ll do the same thing. Once those two main players in the energy and the conservation way the bar industry, grab hold of it, you’ll see Colorado follows through right away. You’ll have outliers, Oklahoma, they’re not going to, they’re paying to spend as much energy as you want to grow whatever you want. You know, they’re pretty libertarian in their mindset there regarding that. Florida the same way, the Missouri zero restrictions on how much energy or water you can consume, it’s up to you, you’re the, it’s your business, do what you want to do.

Adam Kulbach 7:46
What are the common solutions to these requirements?

Anthony Vilgiate 7:50
Most of them are pushing to eliminate high pressure sodium, you know, the legacy lighting stuff that all of us grew up with. So the HPS is getting pushed out, getting legislated out of existence. You’ve got big companies like Kavita, they now aren’t even supporting it. A lot of guys using locks and you’re not seeing-you can’t even get the balls anymore. So it’s kind of being legislated out of existence. Some providers in our industry have found ways around that by just making 1000 watt LED lights, but now you’re spending the same wattage as you were with HPS, you’re not really getting any benefit. But there’s some stigma in people’s minds, I need 1000 Watts like, well, do you know what a watt is? How efficient are using that watt? So there’s some of that education and we still have to do to really help people understand what they’re paying for. That will be a push towards conservation. You’re also seeing it though, on the HVAC side, dehumidification, it’s not just lighting centric.

Ryan Doyle 8:40
And that’s been a really encouraging thing on some of the things that we’ve been working with Calmax on in terms of crafting, they’re in the process of, they just ramped up their initial study on adaptive-adaptive lighting controls for greenhouses. They’re really focusing on understanding what are the requirements that a plant needs to produce the most yield? And how do we optimize for that, because if you’re able to grow, if you increase the yield, that is another way of offsetting energy use because you’re getting more out of the plant putting it in and so they’re looking at horticulture more holistically and understanding the culture of it, what what goes into it, and how those regulations are getting affected and doing a good job of consulting with people like Anthony to get that information. So a lot of it’s been really, really encouraging.

Anthony Vilgiate 9:43
When you look at, looking at watts per square foot versus watts per gram, I mean, which if you’re running an opex budget, you’re looking at your operating capital and what you’re spending every month, your grams per watt should be a forefoot on your mind. You can look at grams per square foot, but the power company can only look at the volume that you’re building in say we want to look at watts per square foot, right? We’re helping them find ways where they can leverage the information that Ryan’s collecting here, we’ve got all this data we’re collecting, we can actually get down to watts per gram watts per saleable ounce. There’s some pretty interesting ways that we can quantify energy consumption and show that even if you’re spending the same amount of energy, you’re spending less per output unit of a product. And that’s, that’s a key metric that we really have to be mindful of.

Adam Kulbach 10:27
Yeah, cuz like that, the watts per square foot, I’m wondering, do they take in account like, like racking systems and home and?

Anthony Vilgiate 10:37
They do. A lot of it again, this is gonna be, there’s like 29 legal states now, right? Each of them have their own quirks and tweaks. That’s why people went disagreeing, right, we had, we were square foot limited. In Oregon, when we first started now we were plant limited. So I’m growing, you know, these seven foot eight foot trees, because I could have eight plants, so I could grow a whole lot of weed out of eight plants, but they’re gonna be big monsters, and it’s gonna be a long growth cycle. So when people started pushing to see a green and move into racks and stuff like that, the legislation hailed behind it, they’re starting to adjust that sometimes you’re plant limited, you’re canopy square foot limited. Massachusetts, you’re not. I’ve even seen guys who are running 60,000 square foot facilities, and only farming at 30,000. Because they got now I have 72 watts per square foot. So occupying, you know, there, it’s not canopy constant, concentric, county or canopy, they’re counting your square footage. So if I give twice as much energy, you dont allow me to grow the way I want to grow, I’m gonna rent more space. And you’re seeing a lot of that happening is there’s workarounds and loopholes.

Ryan Doyle 11:38
And rewarding growers for things that are trackable. So, you know, how much co2 are you using? And how much light are you putting out? Like, are you using more light than the plant is able to absorb? And so putting in rewards for that of like, you know, setting, like, I mean, these are things that are on the horizon, but they’re being considered and they’re intelligent decisions, because it’s, it’s real, it’s scientifically based and it’s thought out, because, as Anthony said, you know, people are going to game whatever system gets put in. So I mean, the objective has to be growing the highest quality and getting the best economical output. While being mindful of the environment, and what the what that footprint.

Anthony Vilgiate 12:26
California is talking about actual financial incentives to give these guys to tune their grows to be more efficient. And I think that’s encouraging to me, to see them willing to make those investments in their customers, who are the growers, to our customers, to see them optimize, and optimization is good for everybody. It’s good for the environment, it’s good for the business owner, it’s good for the consumer.

Adam Kulbach 12:49
Okay, what are some of the other benefits to optimize in a grow’s lighting efficiency.

Anthony Vilgiate 12:55
So from your bottom line, you’re gonna get a higher quality product, you’re gonna probably mitigate most of the environmentally caused pathogens, your powdery mildew, some of the terrible things that happen if you’re not controlling your hygiene well. And poor hygiene is usually a result of bad environmental control. So if you can control those two things, you can eliminate a lot of the things you’d normally have to mitigate. We think that’s a huge advantage for that. But I mean, really, the bottom line is as silly as it sounds, it is the bottom line. As much as passionate as we are about this plant and what it can do for people, we also, it’s a business and you have to you have to be profitable. And if you can control your costs, while still producing a high quality product that consumers demand, then it’s a win win for everybody, environment and the consumer.

Ryan Doyle 13:40
And then you get into things like, you know, what can you do on a top line level, and more more nuanced things and, and there’ll be eventually be talked a little bit about the patterns that you, that you bought in, and kind of help how we apply some of the spectral tuning in both greenhouse and vertical settings.

Anthony Vilgiate 13:59
I think that there’s definitely advantages there when people are looking at adaptive daylight controls and the ability to control spectrum. So a lot of this is going to tailor itself towards the greenhouse environment where we’re taking advantage of the available sunlight. And then we’ll try to match that spectrum. So we’re not supplementing with a couple of odd wavelengths. So we can actually take in a reading through a PAR Sensor process through Ryan’s software, and adjust the light to match that spectrum. So we’re only adding the amount of supplemental light required, we’re not just turning the lights on because while we’re short, so say I need to hit 1000 PPFD target a target of illuminance on my canopy, and the sun’s only providing me 750 Ryan’s software will measure what’s coming through the roof and only provide that much to the lights. So if you have a 600 watt light as an example, and you only need 180 of those watts to produce the supplement, that’s all the system does. So it lowers lowers your opex considerably, that way and you’re hitting a very repeatable standard every time. So I don’t have those variables that are while we had a really good sunny March and didn’t hit our, and overhead our number, while we’ve got shade curtains and auto-deploy, and we have lights, it’ll turn off, we’re not going to overlight something. So, once you get that consistency built-in to your system, your product and your yields are consistent. And that consumer experience is going to be the same time after time. And I think that’s critical. And most most good farmers right now are already implementing some sort of system to maintain consistency in their product and their yields.

Ryan Doyle 15:31
Yeah, and then you open up to adding some intelligence to that where, you know, if you start, you know thinking of light not in terms of, you know, a discrete point in time, but what did the plant receive over the course of the day, with now you have the ability to plan for, you know, the amount of photons being there for the amount of daylight that you’ll have? And so, if there was an especially sunny morning, looking at it, and understanding, okay, yes, you know, typically, I would want to EPFP target at 700, because the overexposure of the plant in this morning, well, now we can dial back the supplemental light that we’re putting throughout the day, or looking forward and saying, good, there’s an oncoming weather pattern in a week, that there’s gonna be a lot of clouds, so we need to meet that target to make sure the plants are getting a bit more sunlight now, and that’s the kind of intelligence are getting a lot like you’d see in a nest thermostat, where you know, when there’s a cold front coming on, it’s going to not, you know, cool things out, and it’s going to wait a little bit for that to happen. And so that’s, you know, things like that, one from you know, that title 24 and side of things are looking at but from just your bottom line and making sure that you’re not putting in light that isn’t going to be used, but then also making sure that if there’s going to be, you know, a period where more supplemental light is required that you’re meeting that as well.

Anthony Vilgiate 17:00
As a lot of the guys Adam like Aroya. They do crop steering, you can do crop steering as well using light, implementing some light discipline, frankly. So if you’re looking at photoperiod and calculating your GLI from photoperiod, you can steer that intelligently. And through machine learning. You don’t have to be making these constant calculations, our grower doesn’t have to be dedicated to do I dim my lights when I turn it off and I turn down, it’s something that it’s gonna happen organically for your farm your specific location. And we think that that’s a value add that a grower is gonna appreciate because they can scale that that’s a repeatable thing that I can transplant from one spot to another without having one guy getting in his truck and driving from farm to farm to farm to dial things in, you can set a recipe in one location and promulgate that throughout his entire network without having to physically audit those facilities and be there to adjust as the climate changes. So does that make sense? Or did I ramble on I have a tendency to ramble into minutiae that doesn’t necessarily, that’s what you’re here for the minutiae rambling then.

Adam Kulbach 18:06
So is, is AI involved in any of this? Or will it be?

Anthony Vilgiate 18:10
It will, not it not in the way you’re thinking of AI, it’s not chatGPT style AI, it’s machine learning, which is a much more dedicated form of AI. It’s not artificial intelligence, or it’s making decisions for you. You set the exception bands, your high and low parameters, and then the outputs that harvest get input into the system, you say, Okay, this is what we got. Now, if we narrow that exception bands, so nothing falls in and out of it, then we can, each time it happens, we can continually refine that recipe through experience, not through some predictive analytics, but it’s actually through inputs through the machine learning so Ryan’s the machine learning expert, big data is not my my world of expertise. But I’m, I just want to make sure people understand. We’re not turning it over to Skynet, no one’s gonna be making decisions without your input. You know, this is all taking what you’re learning. What Franco back was tell a story about this, sure, how to grow that last instance, dehumidifier.

Franco 19:11
Lost it for four days at a weird spot in the grow and it was week four. And we tracked all that, but the end, everyone was panicking, oh, we’re gonna have problems, we’re gonna have this. In the end, we actually ended up with an interesting stressor on that plant that ended up with a very unique terpene profile and a different THC concentration than we were expecting in this cultivar. We were able to replicate that, because we logged it knew what would happened. We go-hey, if we introduce a weird stress at week four, on this particular cultivar, this is what we’re going to get in the end. Run the experiment, you do it and go, well son of a gun, we can do that. So every time we track something that falls outside of exception, the output isn’t necessarily a disaster. Sometimes it’s a fine tuning of a process. It gives you a very unique product and that kind of data, you can’t track on your own with a clipboard. You really need to be logging that in real time and have access to it later.

Adam Kulbach 18:10
Okay, so-go ahead.

Ryan Doyle 20:06
Yeah, no, I mean, just just kind of to end these points. The machine learning, it’s a great application for machine learning, because you have a bunch of discrete variables, you have, you know, integers that you know, for temperature for humidity, or co2 for, for all of those things that you’re looking at. And your output, if you’re looking for what what weight, trim, trim weight, dry weight, or in even more subjective measurements of, you know, visual appeal or aroma. Whatever you’re looking to train for it, you have good things to point to and for the-to process, and to filter out the noise and identify the signals of what are driving those changes. And so yeah, it’s, you know, it’s kind of in the same vein, when people are talking to artificial intelligence, it’s a machine that’s going and figuring something out for you. It’s just a slightly different implementation.

Adam Kulbach 21:06
Okay, so how does the cultivation go about making these changes? Let’s start with new cultivations. What do you recommend set new cultivation facilities build into their plan from the very beginning with regard to lighting efficiency?

Anthony Vilgiate 21:20
I would start right away with hiring a decent lighting designer or getting with a lighting company or firm that actually implements to lighting design in it. I’ve seen a lot of you know, get your free lighting plan from us. And they’re kind of generic things, and no one guarantees them. So A, get a good lighting plan, knowing your PPFD targets are to start with and if you have a regulatory limitation on that, on watts per square foot or some short energy consumption that you understand that ends in front, don’t go to lines and say I want 1500 PPFD. Without knowing why you need 1500 PPFD. If your cultivar can handle it, if you can supplement the co2, if your energy can do it, you know, make sure you have all that upfront, then go to a real lighting designer or a company that has one on staff. And then make sure that whatever they’re going to give you is going to be guaranteed, Hey, are you going to guarantee the results from this, hey, if you follow our if you follow our recipe and our mounting sched, schedule, I’ll guarantee and in my instance and Agxano is the same way. We guarantee that you’re going to get what we tell you, you’re going to get me on our lights. So that’s what I’d be looking for if I was setting up a new grow right now. But on energy conservation side, there are solar added ins right now that have some big rebates. If you’re doing a grid tie, or even a remote non grid tied solar, there’s a lot of ways you can mitigate your expenses and have somebody else, generally the taxpayer pick up the bill right now, there’s a lot of incentives. If you’re smart, setting up a new facility, it’s much harder retrofitting an older facility, because in most cases, you have to show an energy savings to get an incentive to get a rebate. So if I’m converting an old warehouse that had very low watts per square foot consumption, and I’m coming in and saying now I want to go to a 50 watts per square foot on your eight watt per square foot facility, energy companies have a tendency not to want to write a check for that. So I’m understanding what you’re retrofitting versus a new bill. New construction is significantly easier, in my opinion than trying to retrofit an existing structure.

Adam Kulbach 23:18
Okay, well, I think you you answered like the next two questions. Sorry. That’s okay. But what do you say to people who think it’s too expensive? What do you?

Anthony Vilgiate 23:32
I say that it mean that people think it’s too expensive, how it looked recently, the market pressures post-COVID, on on the general grow lighting industry, not just my company, have really, really lowered the overall cost. In most cases, you can get an appropriate grow light to grow cannabis and a completely indoor facility for the same price as you could pick up a look at that. As you could have picked up a HPS at double ended HPS, you know, four or five years ago. And we’re seeing that that price point is down with the incentives, it’s generally the same cost. But what I really tell them is, don’t get sticker shock. Look at your ROI. What is your return on your investment now, what is your initial investment, so if you if you can get that ROI back at eight months, with one light, or 14 months with another light, those are things you evaluate that you’re gonna have to make the investment anyway. You have to put lighting in a controlled environment, agriculture, it’s gonna have to be purchased. So buying just on dollars up front, your capex, not looking at your ROI is a fool’s errand. You really have to evaluate and go with people who will guarantee your results. Someone comes in and says, I’m going to save you 60% of energy, well show me a spreadsheet and then tell me if I don’t, what you’re going to do for me. That’s what that’s who I want to talk to. Too many guys can make you a promise and unfortunately, it’s got a black eye for our industry for the last five or six years. Lots of big promises, those companies aren’t around anymore. It’s companies like yours that have outlasted the time because you deliver what you promise, and those are the companies you have to look at. Don’t get sticker shock, look at your return on your investment, make sure it’s calculated accurately, and you understand what you’re buying, and how it’s going to pay itself off. And I think that’s the right way to do it.

Ryan Doyle 25:15
Yeah. And I would say, you know, so get someone to help you look towards the future. I mean, like, there’s, there’s now some good people in this space that will help you do that. Higher Yields is absolutely one of them, to at least help you have a framework of how am I going to future proof my grow? What are the technologies that are on the horizon that the leading commercial growers are using, that the guys are getting the best results? Why? Why are they getting that? You know, there’s a lot of really good information out there. But the technology that’s coming to market is easy to deploy, you’re not having to have, you know, an engineering firm come in to help you deploy sensors, there’s wireless technology that you can put down for Bay sensing, for control, for HVAC type equipment, and for lighting stuff that has open protocols that plays well, with with other you know, other technology, you don’t want to get locked in where you’re now in an ecosystem where you’re buying all proprietary parts. And you know, when they decided that they’re going to increase their subscription fee, that was, you know, $10 a month, and now it’s $1,000 a month and you you’re out there, they’ve looked at data, you know, understand that kind of stuff, because there’s a lot of really good technology that people are using that are getting real results. And even if it’s something that you’re not deploying now to have a vision kind of towards the future, and just make sure that you’re not getting locked into something that’s going to be tough to unlock later.

Anthony Vilgiate 26:54
So our decision to work with Agxona, this goes back, you know, five years now, we made all of our lights compatible without adding any any tiered cost. And we were fairly agnostic about controls, and we still are, we’re completely agnostic. So are you can hang our light and use anybody’s controls with them. But they’re compatible with anybody with an open protocol. I won’t tie myself into any closed ecosystem, like Ryan was saying, and he mentioned future proofing. And I could couldn’t agree more, you want to have dynamically tunable spectrum because you don’t know what the next round of research is going to reveal about, hey, if we change this circadian rhythm, we get this cannabinoid impact. And we’re seeing stuff like that right now. So if you don’t have something that’s dynamically tunable, that you can’t infinitely adjust in terms of your intensities and your spectrum, you’re pigeonhole, you’re not gonna be able to move forward with that. And if it doesn’t cost you any more, why wouldn’t you want that you don’t have to turn that switch on. But having it available is, I think it’s pretty critical. And make sure like Ryan said, man, do not lock yourself into some proprietary one guy show, because if something happens to that one guy, you’re hosed. And if he and then he’s got you by the short hairs, you can raise and lower his costs at a whim, and you have very little control at that point over it. I won’t mention specific companies, but I’ve dealt with some large irrigation companies that require on site engineers, that you have to pay for their day and their travel and their per diem to come out and program their stuff. It’s not readily accessible. I can’t just pop on and walk, walk through a drop down menu and go, Okay, that’s what I want. Go, you know, I gotta go, No, I gotta hire Bob. And Bob’s got to come out for four days and program it and when Bob leaves, I have no idea what he did, and I can’t do it myself. So I think it’s really critical that you have stuff that you can get your hands around, or that it’s so plug and play. Simple that you don’t have to worry about having a specialist on staff who can manage it, because that goes back ROI.

Adam Kulbach 28:48
You mentioned earlier, could you expand on existing facilities? What are the difficulties with that, as opposed to a brand new system?

Anthony Vilgiate 28:57
We’re talking about an existing cultivation facility that’s already growing cannabis ,retrofitting in there’s generally quite simple, you’ve already got your license, your engineering plans have been done, you have your power drops and feeds. So then it’s just a matter of swapping out a light that’s going to give you good canopy penetration and uniformity. Depending on your footprint, your growth style, guys are growing in racks like PIP racking and stuff like that. They’ve got a very specific four by eight trader lighting, it’s not rocket science to provide a uniform thing over that knowing what your mounting height is. Those are all pretty simple stuff. But if you’re going into retrofitting a facility, you got to hire somebody who’s done it and knows what they’re doing. Trying to scale your, Hey, I grew in my garage with a 20 leg grow for five years so I’m going to be a commercial farmer. That is a long jump. It’s a it’s a bridge and it’s a lot longer than most guys are willing to admit to themselves. Having to compensate it to manage a garage grow or a big basement grow or small 20 Light legacy grow is a different animal than a 30,000 square foot commercial facility. You have to hire professionals who understand those those challenges, get a good engineering firm. And for God’s sake, please hire an environmental consultant first to walk through that building. Make sure you don’t have a lot you got to mitigate. I’ve watched a lot of guys and some beautiful brick buildings that should have probably been turned into lovely loft apartments in downtown areas that tried to turn into cannabis grows, they found lead and asbestos and all sorts of mitigative things that tripled their cost of expansion. And that’s a crippling blow to a startup.

Adam Kulbach 30:27
Just about coming to the end. Do you have any other further tips or anything else you’d like to discuss?

Anthony Vilgiate 30:35
And you know, from my end, I just, you know, shameless plug. I mean, we have been in this industry on the LED side of it for a very long time. I’ve got a dozen patents just in horticulture about how to how to generate spectrum appropriately at the lowest possible cost. And we domestically manufacture everything. I’d really like to just make sure people know there are companies in America who still do it in America, and still have boots on the ground here to support you. And yeah, that’s kind of what I’d like to leave the viewers with. It’s that’s the biggest tip.

Adam Kulbach 31:06
Okay, so where do people look you guys up?

Anthony Vilgiate 31:10
You can catch us through exonerees website. I mean, we pretty much run all the commercial lighting through Agxano. We’re R&D Manufacturing Company. And we rely on guys like Ryan and his team to do the sales out there. So you can take Agxano-agxano.com. It’s the best place to find us.

Adam Kulbach 31:29
Thank you very much, guys. It’s been really great, very informative.

Ryan Doyle 31:36
Thank you.

Adam Kulbach 31:37
Thank you very much.